Ancient Greek Views on Women

[Acolyte Of Pan 666]

This one is a bit troubling for me, and I say this as someone who wouldn't call themselves a feminist, at least not in the modern definition.

I'm still fairly new to studying ancient Greek works and myth, but some of it appears to be rabidly anti-woman. The myth of Pandora's creation, even if it meant something else allegorically, would have likely left the average ancient Greek reader thinking that women are the cause of all the world's problems, not that different from some xian reading Genesis.

Hesiod called women the bane of men. Aristotle wrote of women as deformed men. Plato thought (to his credit, he didn't say this was a fact but merely his speculation) that the souls inside female bodies were men who lacked courage and control over themselves in their past lives and that rebirth into female bodies were punishment in response to that weakness. A lot this reminds me of what Abrahamics of all kinds usually say about women.

Hindu, Egyptian and Sumerian myths did not depict women as the cause of all problems and often potrayed many Goddesses as more powerful than the Gods.

Why was Greek thought so anti-woman then, in contrast to other Pagan cultures who were mainly patriarchal as well but didn't talk of women as antagonistically as the Greeks did?

 

[Acolyte Of Pan 666]

Plato's views were quite egalatarian actually and he wanted to include women in all aspects of running the Republic, as long as they were capable.

Aristotle though wanted to keep women out of politics completely.

Hesiod seemed to be openely mysogynistic however.

That's just my current surface-level reading of them however, perhaps there's deeper nuance I missed?

 

[AFODO]

Be careful with translations because it's especially hard to understand the original thought and intent trough translations, as it is infected with the translator's interpretation.
About Pandora, you can read more here: https://ancient-forums.com/threads/the-myth-of-prometheus-explained.298992/
Those who misinterpret myths are their problems, myth writers didn't address the normal people with these myths but the initiated.

About Hesiod calling Women the bane of Men, this can be interpreted many ways and doesn't even mean that woman are bad for man or anything like that.
For example this can mean that men needs women in their, otherwise they are in pain, or something idk the context here.

that the souls inside female bodies were men who lacked courage and control over themselves in their past lives and that rebirth into female bodies were punishment in response to that weakness

How do you know it's not true? I mean is he a God philosopher or are you? In anyways, there can be corruption here, when you see such a bald claim from philosophers that are confirmed by ToZ, you should ask High Priest about it (very respectfully! Not like your post here) after considering every possible cases and thinking and meditating on it how this could be possible or what could have been the original thought. Maybe it's entirely right, maybe it's entirely corrupted, who knows? Research on it. Search for the original text and for a word to word literal translation. Many of these text have been preserved and copied by Christians so you cannot be entirely sure you are actually reading the original version even in ancient Greek. In anyways, if you gonna reject every new information you never gonna expand your mind, so don't just instantly reject these, except if you have strong intuition that something is off here. But you must have this intuition feeling that doesn't come from your lower ego and being offended, but from your higher self and the Gods, only then you are rightful to say that this is wrong. Otherwise, ask HP. I hope this is clear what I'm saying.

Plato's views were quite egalatarian actually and he wanted to include women in all aspects of running the Republic, as long as they were capable.

Aristotle though wanted to keep women out of politics completely.

Hesiod seemed to be openely mysogynistic however.

https://satanslibrary.org/English/HP_Hooded_Cobra/Womens_Freedom_-_High_Priest_Hooded_Cobra_666.pdf

https://satanslibrary.org/English/HP_Hooded_Cobra/Women_and_Nazis_-_High_Priest_Hooded_Cobra_666.pdf

 

[Epiphany]

About Hesiod calling Women the bane of Men, this can be interpreted many ways and doesn't even mean that woman are bad for man or anything like that.
For example this can mean that men needs women in their, otherwise they are in pain, or something idk the context here.

I see it as women can bring men to ruin like nothing else can. HP has said something along these lines also.

 

[WoadWarrior]

I mean the Ancient Greeks were not free of misogyny and all those great thinkers you listed while great were limited both by the culture they were raised in, the context of their upbringing and their social groups.
Just like we are limited by ours, there are things that they understood easily by nature due to their upbringings that the modern man severely struggles with but likewise there are things they struggled with, in The Republic Socrates states without reservation that all things a man can do or has aptitude to do a woman is likewise capable of, though He did argue they would likely be worse at any physical labor this is what they meant by "deformed men" a woman even if she wants to lets say become a wrestler will always be at massive disadvantage to a man in wrestling.

Also consider that which survives of the writings of these men is that which the abrahamics did not destroy, put bluntly we dont really know their thoughts on women as much of their works have been destroyed, we know that Socrates and thus likely His students considered forcing women to act a certain way was foolishness but they also seemed to agree that there is a certain way women should act but not all will fit this mold and should therefore not be forced. These men thought a lot and to try and condense their opinions down to the small scraps left of their works is exactly why the enemy destroyed them.

Its also important to note they would never treat women as muslims, christians or jews do, they would never demand they be locked away and given no voice in fact they would likely pick up a spear if they saw a women being treated that way, also consider that the Ancient Greeks had a particular sense of humor its not outlandish to suggest some of their comments are a little tongue in cheek, there are a few jokes in The Republic keep in mind much of the dialogues are just Socrates talking with friends and Plato recording them, they are more casual than you might otherwise think and friends do joke around.

As for Hesiod He wrote in deep allegory anything gleamed from the surface level is likely inaccurate as His meanings were always multifold.

 

[Personal Growth]

The old German Philosopher Artur Schopenhauer felt the same. I can see it. Women are another type of child. Just how it is. A man can only truly be himself when he is on his own because it's a surrender for the man to take on the child like woman.

 

[Voice of Enki [TG]]

This one is a bit troubling for me, and I say this as someone who wouldn't call themselves a feminist, at least not in the modern definition.

I'm still fairly new to studying ancient Greek works and myth, but some of it appears to be rabidly anti-woman. The myth of Pandora's creation, even if it meant something else allegorically, would have likely left the average ancient Greek reader thinking that women are the cause of all the world's problems, not that different from some xian reading Genesis.

Hesiod called women the bane of men. Aristotle wrote of women as deformed men. Plato thought (to his credit, he didn't say this was a fact but merely his speculation) that the souls inside female bodies were men who lacked courage and control over themselves in their past lives and that rebirth into female bodies were punishment in response to that weakness. A lot this reminds me of what Abrahamics of all kinds usually say about women.

Hindu, Egyptian and Sumerian myths did not depict women as the cause of all problems and often potrayed many Goddesses as more powerful than the Gods.

Why was Greek thought so anti-woman then, in contrast to other Pagan cultures who were mainly patriarchal as well but didn't talk of women as antagonistically as the Greeks did?

I'd like to see some sources on that, which works are those quotations from, what is the context in which they are written, and is there any original untranslated text available?
Very likely a lot of those statements are completely mistranslated by "academics" who do not understand the nuance of Ancient Greek itself, or they are sentences taken out of context and thus their actual meaning is misunderstood.

None of that sounds alike what Plato or Aristotle would think of woman or have to say about them.

 

[Aquarius]

If you can't read ancient greek or understand the translated materials I would stick to the personalities on the website for now.

 

[Mysteries of the Gods]

I divide this in paragraphs, so it looks nicer and more readable.

1) Spiritual Texts are allegories​

Ancient Philosophers and Theologians like Plato, Hesiod, Orpheus (even Homer if he did exist, I think yes, and he was an Initiate, but I don't know for sure, of course)...have a way of expression that is not direct. Like many Spiritual Texts in Antiquity, they are written in codes/allegories and could not be clear and direct because the Teachings were not open to the non-initiates.

2) Scholars and mainstream interpretation don't have a full picture.
This leads to the fact that one has to be an Initiate himself/herself in order to fully understand what Plato or Ancient Theologians/Philosophers were saying. Thereby, it's not correct (if you know those are Pieces of Text for Initiates) to take what the Text says at face value, and you cannot even trust scholars fully in this because most scholars nowadays are not initiated, therefore they don't have the Keys to provide a correct insight. They usually give those Texts a political, cultural, and sometimes psychological explanation, but Initiates know this is not the full picture. I'm not saying scholars don't get anything right, and you cannot get value from them. It's not like the Myth cannot also reflect some State of Affairs or cultural ideas of their time of origin. They are multi-layered, after all...but what scholars say is not all there is about them and this must be considered.


3) But can the Allegory still reflect a cultural background of the time?
Maybe. You can theorize that those Texts were using tones that would appeal to the general cultural background. It's usually that way. Texts are tied to the place and time they were "born" in some shape or form; therefore, I would say yes to that question, even though, again...Spiritual Allegorical Text is not only a mirror of civilization, and is not to be taken literally.


4) How were women viewed in Ancient Greece? Sparta vs other Poleis
You have to take into account that Ancient Greece (overall) is a diversified cultural environment. There was hardly ever any perfect unity in thoughts and customs since there was also no "political unity" for most of the time in their history. Only with the Persian Wars, the Greeks start to call themselves Greeks (as in establishing a unified national identity, as the poleis found themselves united against a common enemy, the Persians). Poleis had their ideas, customs, cults, laws, etc, overall...for most of the time in their history.
That means that tracing out a unified picture of Ancient Greek thought in time AND in space throughout the land is extremely difficult.

Overall, Ancient Greece, women had a secondary place in society, and women were not considered citizens and could not participate in political affairs, and in some Poleis, not even own land without the supervision of men. This was not everywhere: Sparta is a remarkable example that scandalized the other Greeks: women were freer, could own land property without a man's watching over...but what scandalized the other Greeks the most about Sparta was that women were more sexually free and could have children with other men other than her own husband. That was in a context when the family unit didn't count too much. Sparta had a unique way of functioning: children were handed over to the State (Poleis) for war training at 8 years old. The other poleis didn't have that. War was important but Sparta was more hardcore and they were specialists in War.

5) Conclusions
The only most certain way to know the real meaning of Greek Spiritual Allegories (like the Myths of Hesiod, Orpheus and Allegorical Philosophy) is by discovering what they mean throughout your Journey, by being initiated and advance. The Wisdom of the Gods is above cultural context, and the only way to truly know is to find out for yourself with an open mind.