Nakshatras - Lunar Mansions

This Joy of Satan group is for discussion of and learning astrology.
For more information:

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpent ... URCAS.html
User avatar
Stormblood
Posts: 1651
Location: Academy of the Dragon, Dinas Ffaraon

Nakshatras - Lunar Mansions

Postby Stormblood » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:26 pm

How are these calculated in a non-Vedic chart? Since Vedic chart casting is unreliable and interpretations are reliable only when applied to Western astrology I was wondering if someone could tell me how I can calculate nakshatras on my chart.

BoRn of fire
Posts: 252

Re: Nakshatras - Lunar Mansions

Postby BoRn of fire » Tue May 08, 2018 10:39 am

Stormblood wrote:How are these calculated in a non-Vedic chart? Since Vedic chart casting is unreliable and interpretations are reliable only when applied to Western astrology I was wondering if someone could tell me how I can calculate nakshatras on my chart.

Are these not like the 'degrees of 'fixed Stars' in western astrology ? I don't know but i think it could b the same

User avatar
Stormblood
Posts: 1651
Location: Academy of the Dragon, Dinas Ffaraon

Re: Nakshatras - Lunar Mansions

Postby Stormblood » Tue May 08, 2018 8:04 pm

BoRn of fire wrote:
Stormblood wrote:How are these calculated in a non-Vedic chart? Since Vedic chart casting is unreliable and interpretations are reliable only when applied to Western astrology I was wondering if someone could tell me how I can calculate nakshatras on my chart.

Are these not like the 'degrees of 'fixed Stars' in western astrology ? I don't know but i think it could b the same


I think it's different. Maybe I should quote someone who has studied the thing. Here:

Desdemona Diamandis wrote:...


I need your help, if you are willing and available.

HP Mageson666
Posts: 2205

Re: Nakshatras - Lunar Mansions

Postby HP Mageson666 » Wed May 09, 2018 5:45 am

With Vedic astrology everything has to be calculated to the procession from the statements of it by Vedic Astrologers. Otherwise it does not work.

User avatar
Sinistra
Posts: 392

Re: Nakshatras - Lunar Mansions

Postby Sinistra » Thu May 10, 2018 6:39 pm

Desdemona Diamandis wrote:Yes. Don says well. Nakshatras calculated only to sidereal chart.
Unreliable? Absolutely not! The most reliable ever and if someone starts to study it deeply, one will realize it.

Mixing vedic astrology with today's western astrology is not really good.
Although I obviously prefer Vedic astrology and sidereal zodiac, I still observe and use tropical zodiac too in western astrology.
Because in many cases it is okay and work. As we know.

But here's a quite good writing and a video about it:

http://vedicartandscience.com/tropicalzodiac/

Actually tropical zodiac was created only later. And it is proven that ancient Greece and Egypt etc used the sidereal zodiac too. Of course since if tropical zodiac would have been used then it would have been the same as sidereal then, more than 2000 years ago.

Claudius Ptolemy publishes Tetra Biblos which pins the existent Sidereal Zodiacs of Greece and Egypt to the Vernal equinox. This creates the “Tropical Zodiac”, which no longer measures astronomical movements based on precise, Sidereal coordinates, but instead projects the seasonal zodiac into space in order to calculate planetary positions.

Regarding to nakshatras...
The 27 nakshatras are working behind the zodiac signs.

Image

Image

You must use sidereal zodiac in your calculator too check which nakshatras are your planets in.
You can switch from tropical to sidereal in ZET too. Or you can use such online vedic chart calculator which shows your planets in nakshatras as well.

http://galacticcenter.org/chart-calculator/

I use this vedic calculator which also shows the divisional charts too:

http://www.vedicastrologer.org/jh/


For now I would not post more website about the nakshatra interpretations, the characteristics of nakshatras. I have read a lot about it. In many places there are crap in the interpretations which needs to be cut out. And also the mythology of the nakshatras are often very symbolic...

But later I will try to collect the better writings and also I am planning to create articles about it.


Here is my issue with sidereal astrology. It doesn't work for me at all on a basic level (just even looking at the D1/zodiac signs) So why should it work on a deeper level (with divisional charts) or work for anyone else. If it doesn't even work on the most basic level for me.
I would love to have a premade all working system to use. Except it doesn't.
Tropical works on a basic level for me. So I build my chart reading on this.
But keep in mind I don't reject jyotish interpretations (not some of their methods). In many things they are far more detailled and advanced then western astrology. I am actually very interested in jyotish.
And yes I believe their knowledge can be reused (some would say mix-matched, I don't like the term) within tropical western astrology.

User avatar
Sinistra
Posts: 392

Re: Nakshatras - Lunar Mansions

Postby Sinistra » Sat May 12, 2018 2:26 pm

Desdemona Diamandis wrote:
Sinistra wrote:
Desdemona Diamandis wrote:Yes. Don says well. Nakshatras calculated only to sidereal chart.
Unreliable? Absolutely not! The most reliable ever and if someone starts to study it deeply, one will realize it.

Mixing vedic astrology with today's western astrology is not really good.
Although I obviously prefer Vedic astrology and sidereal zodiac, I still observe and use tropical zodiac too in western astrology.
Because in many cases it is okay and work. As we know.

But here's a quite good writing and a video about it:

http://vedicartandscience.com/tropicalzodiac/

Actually tropical zodiac was created only later. And it is proven that ancient Greece and Egypt etc used the sidereal zodiac too. Of course since if tropical zodiac would have been used then it would have been the same as sidereal then, more than 2000 years ago.

Claudius Ptolemy publishes Tetra Biblos which pins the existent Sidereal Zodiacs of Greece and Egypt to the Vernal equinox. This creates the “Tropical Zodiac”, which no longer measures astronomical movements based on precise, Sidereal coordinates, but instead projects the seasonal zodiac into space in order to calculate planetary positions.

Regarding to nakshatras...
The 27 nakshatras are working behind the zodiac signs.

Image

Image

You must use sidereal zodiac in your calculator too check which nakshatras are your planets in.
You can switch from tropical to sidereal in ZET too. Or you can use such online vedic chart calculator which shows your planets in nakshatras as well.

http://galacticcenter.org/chart-calculator/

I use this vedic calculator which also shows the divisional charts too:

http://www.vedicastrologer.org/jh/


For now I would not post more website about the nakshatra interpretations, the characteristics of nakshatras. I have read a lot about it. In many places there are crap in the interpretations which needs to be cut out. And also the mythology of the nakshatras are often very symbolic...

But later I will try to collect the better writings and also I am planning to create articles about it.


Here is my issue with sidereal astrology. It doesn't work for me at all on a basic level (just even looking at the D1/zodiac signs) So why should it work on a deeper level (with divisional charts) or work for anyone else. If it doesn't even work on the most basic level for me.
I would love to have a premade all working system to use. Except it doesn't.
Tropical works on a basic level for me. So I build my chart reading on this.
But keep in mind I don't reject jyotish interpretations (not some of their methods). In many things they are far more detailled and advanced then western astrology. I am actually very interested in jyotish.
And yes I believe their knowledge can be reused (some would say mix-matched, I don't like the term) within tropical western astrology.


As you wish. If you are really interested it's good because most people who believes that jyotish would not work for him/her, did not study deeply jyotish. Actually a vedic astrological analysis is very exact.
Especially the divisional charts can show a lot more. But it requires deeper understanding of course.
First I also did not understand it well just after I started to learn more and more about it.

But it is true that in vedic astrology the explanations, interpretations and meanings are different in many levels, and analysing the vedic chart itself can be done differently than in western astrology...

I found that "tropical" zodiac still works well. Both can be used and correct.
There was another good video about this topic. If I find it I will share it for sure.

But that's not logical. Only one or none of the two can be right for the planetary placements.
It's not possible that both are right. Moon can't be in Pisces AND in Aries (just a random example)
The reason I say that jyotish doesn't work on a basic level for me is that it flips my planets into completely different zodiac signs. And it's not even me wishing my jyotish placements aren't accurate. Actually on the contrary I believe I may end up with "better" placements (well "better" or "worse" is very relative to the point of view, but that's out of the subject). But the planetary energies wouldn't make sense in how they have manifested all my life.
I don't see the point at looking at my D60 chart which requires 2 min accuracy.. when the basic sign placements of my planets in sidereal casting don't make sense for me.

User avatar
Sinistra
Posts: 392

Re: Nakshatras - Lunar Mansions

Postby Sinistra » Mon May 21, 2018 11:02 pm

Desdemona Diamandis wrote:No. Actually it's logical.
And it could make sense for you too.
It just requires deeper understanding.
The interpretations of the zodiac signs are different in the two systems.
You try to think in the interpretations of the western astrology, in "tropical" way when you observe your vedic chart or try to analyze it. Vedic chart should be analyzed and understood in vedic way.

Many people believe it otherwise because they did not study deeper the jyotish. That's all.
One simply cannot judge anything or cannot debate about it which he/she did not study on deeper level or did not understand well.
No problem by the way.

Again. Both can be right. But not in the same level. As I said the interprerations and patterns are different.

The planets were still on the same coordinates in the space when someone was born. For example, when I was born Moon was in Taurus, in the nakshatra of Rohini according to my vedic chart. In my western chart it is in the sign of Gemini at around 10 degree.
Moon was on x,y,z coordinates in the space. But this placement of Moon can be described differently but the effects should be the same. It's just like measuring the same object with different units of measurements...

Some bad interpretations and false analysis can be the problems if someone feels only the tropical would work for him/her.


Unfortuantely this quick video is not what I wanted to find and I don't agree 100% with Kapiel in everything. But it has some good points regarding why all astrological systems can work:

https://youtu.be/tv-nPmDMMrs


But if we are talking about which zodiac is more exact regarding the alignment with the actual astronomical constellations, then it is obviously the sidereal. Which was used by all culture in ancient times.
Until "tropical" zodiac was created which does not measure astronomical movements based on precise, Sidereal coordinates, but instead projects the seasonal zodiac into space in order to calculate planetary positions.

Quotes from "Story of the Zodiacs" by Sam Geppi :

http://vedicartandscience.com/siderealz ... astrology/

"...Tropical Zodiac a Mistake?

The tropical zodiac did not exist until after the 1st century AD. To many throughout history, the tropical zodiac itself is considered to be an irrational juxtaposition of things that should never have been put together. Here’s why.

An “astrological Zodiac”, used for erecting astrology charts, is a structure that allows us to find a planet in a precise location with exact degrees and micro-degrees. These precise coordinates map the celestial movements of planets as they (apparently) circle the Earth. Exact degrees matter with the zodiac. But how are those degrees being calculated?

- Are they being calculated based on precise, ecliptic coordinates, that are virtually unmoving over time (Sidereally)?
- Or are they being calculated by taking our place on earth (which is moving slightly over time) and projecting THAT into space to find precise coordinates for a circling heavenly body (Tropical)?

Personally, I do not think the tropical zodiac was a “mistake” for erecting astrology charts. But I see how it very misunderstood thousands of years later.

The Earth going around the Sun / equinoxes / solstices inherently have nothing to do with the band of celestial coordinates that we use to measure planets moving through the sky. The tropical zodiac connects these two things that are not at all connected to each other..."

"...Is Tropical Zodiac Wrong For Practicing Astrology?

The tropical zodiac was conceived at the same time that both the Vedic and Western astrology systems were being developed. Thus, both systems can work for erecting horoscopes. Especially for Western astrologers and that tradition, tropical zodiac works very well. You can see it in their methods, which have changed and developed with the discovery of new planets, asteroids, fluid sign rulership, etc..."

(Sam Geppi even said that he would not attack any astrologic system and any astrologer, even if that astrologer is a vedic astrologer but uses tropical zodiac or vice versa. If they would like to do it then do it.
Well, I do not agree with this fully. Ernst Wilhelm and some other astrologer mix the two system, and it's not good. It has no too much sense.)

So the point is: any further debate about it is needless. ☺


This does deserve more of my time looking into it. I do not dismiss the possibility I might be wrong. But the evidence (from my subjective POV granted) seems to stack up against sidereal.
It's not about debating. I do not debate, ever. Because I'm convinced it's fucking useless no matter the situation. Only thing it does is get everybody dumber and more hot headed. Very useful indeed.
If I'm still communicating in a "reasonable" sense I am not "debating". Else I would either go away politely or shitpost.

Now unto the matter: There are basic logical concerns that can't be answered by taking the diagonal and saying it's all the same just different names for the placements. All the details must make sense for a system to be acceptable "as is". Else logically it would be more accurate to dismantle it and just take the workings elements. And combine them around. Which is pretty much what I do for myself with my limited capabilities.
What about elemental balance for instance ? This question can't be dodged by saying both are the same thing. If a person is deficient or has a dominance of one element - based on what their placements are telling us, and then you switch mode between tropical or sidereal well it appears it's now another element which is deficient or dominant. And the former element can be now deficient if it was dominant or the reverse. Which is not possible. This by itself doesn't prove that any system is right but it does prove that only one can be right for the placements at most. Since the signs and their elements are the same so it's basically the same metric used anyway.

Concerning the interpretations being different or not : I have watched many of the KRS videos - I like the audio and video formats much more then reading books. I haven't seen any substantial difference over how the signs are interpreted compared to western astrology. Sure if we get on the nakshatras level well they don't exist in western astrology anyway (decans are not comparable at all). But concerning the 12 signs : Aries is still like Aries, Taurus is like Taurus, Gemini is like Gemini etc. I haven't hear him say Aries people are very sweet, compassionate, and kind and not competitive etc. He says more or less the same thing we have on the JOS astrology by HPS Maxime, or the things HP Cobra and Lydia write in their reports concerning each sign etc. The 12 signs are basically universal their interpretation doesn't change going into sidereal realm. The Aries/Pisces is just an example because an aries signature person in tropical would end up being read as a pisces signature in sidereal, and these signs are so obviously different in their demeanour and behaviour they make an easy example.

Now how to see if one works or not (since both can't work it's neither or one at most) well that's by observation and practice. So I can observe simple facts such as my behaviour is X or Y way. The elements have expressed themselves in Z way etc. And then check if this data holds up to either system.

User avatar
Sinistra
Posts: 392

Re: Nakshatras - Lunar Mansions

Postby Sinistra » Wed May 23, 2018 2:51 pm

Desdemona Diamandis wrote:You wrote; "It's not about debating. I do not debate, ever. "

Sorry! I just wrote "debate" generally... I did not want to mean that you would debate or teasing or something. Lol

Well, in vedic astrology, as in KRS's videos too, most of the interpretations are not so different regarding to the signs generally. But this also depends on different astrologers...
But other interpretations/explanations are different in a level.
And one of the main points are the nakshatras. The 27 nakshatras are those which operating behind the zodiac signs and really define the things in deeper level...
But results of the different astrological analysises, in the best case, should be same or very similar.

No, not only one can be right.
Maybe this will help to understand more what I wanted to say:

"...Those learning tropical astrology don’t talk about the stellar significations as it doesn’t fit anymore. Modern tropical astrologers focus primarily on the seasons and other tropical indications. Modern tropical astrologers also focus less on house indications but put heavy emphasis on the planetary relationships which are irrelevant of zodiac. Someone using the planet aspects/conjunctions, planet progressions, planet transits within a system that interprets that planets to be within a seasonal indication (tropical sign) don’t need the stellar signs, and they have a wealth of valid information based on these indicators.

Some sidereal astrologers argue that tropical astrologers are not using the right system because it doesn’t line up to the stars which they value as having the laws of destiny within. Traditional sidereal astrologers rarely discuss significations coming from the seasons, and put more emphasis on the shape of the stars, their myths, and other stellar indications. Sidereal astrologers heavily utilize the houses from the ascendant that the stars are positioned in and the planetary relationships (aspects/conjunctions). They get a huge amount of valid information.
...
...Planet relationships (aspects/conjunctions), and transits will remain the same in either system (so these techniques will remain the same and both systems can cross reference each other’s use and research here). The meaning of the signs will not remain the same, and the house meanings will also shift eventually- in both systems. As they are not remaining together- significations that came together need to be pulled apart.

If someone tries to prove, according to ancient sources, that the zodiac is tropical, they can, if they try to prove its sidereal they also can. So biased views that are trying to prove only one correct will sound accurate, with lots of correct points, but just be at odds with the opposite proof. Therefore, trying to prove one zodiac accurate is a lost cause- and instead, they key for the future is research to prove which zodiac indicates what information. Yet, people with a strong view often ignore and twist what is in front of them to try to prove their point of view.
...
...The tropical nomenclature of the signs (Aries, Taurus, etc) relates to the stellar positions, but the tropical meaning relates to the seasonal nature. The sidereal signs relate directly to the stellar positions. NASA has taken the Greek names for the signs, as they were in texts two thousand years ago. So the stellar/sidereal astrologer and NASA agree on where a sign is placed- which stars are where and what their name is.

Tropical astrology doesn’t indicate stellar position. When the tropical astrologer says that your Mars is in Aries and the Sun is in Cancer, it is scientifically inaccurate. There was a big TV host who said astrologers were all wrong because the signs have changed. The issue is that tropical astrologers have named it wrong, but the interpretation they are giving is correct. If the tropical astrologer had said, that your Mars was in the just-after-spring-Equinox sign and the Sun was in the summer-solstice-sign, and they gave you the meaning of which they normally do- they would be straight and accurate.
..."

(I will not write here where this quote from.
Because ironically and unfortunately it comes from a harmful someone. But that someone has a huge knowledge. >:(
But it is still very accurate and it can answer the question.
I wanted to explain exactly the same here but I did not want to interpret the quoted text as it was my writing...)

Regarding to the elemental balance...
I think it's better to analyze it through spiritual practices. Observing, analysing and balancing the elements through meditation.
A tropical or even a sidereal interpretation about one's elemental balance would not be always correct and constant since it can change. We can change it too, through invoking elements and balancing them.


Well I think I already told everything briefly about it. I don't need to repeat my former replies here.

The conclusion again: yes, both can work!
And if you study more and more and deeply you will realize it.
Or if you are lucky enough to find an expert western astrologer and also an expert vedic astrologer and you get your birth chart analyzed by them, you will see that both astrolgers' analysis, the results or even their predictions will be the same or very similar. Really!

I bet even if I send my chart to HP Cobra - for example - to analyze it, I am sure he will give me similar analysis and predictions about my chart like the vedic astrologers before.

So, you can use both, or use one then which you feel better for yourself. ^^
It is totally okay.
This is the best advice of me. :)


Actually my own sidereal chart is not that different on appearance because of some late degree planets and house cusps that end up in early degrees of the same. There are a few planets that flip into what I consider complete alien territory. Probably it's overall less different then for the average person because of having a lot of late degrees.
But concerning nakshatras of course they change a lot between trying them in tropical and sidereal. My moon in sidereal gets placed in a nakshatra that I really have a difficult time feelinjg linked to. My tropical moon naskhatra (applying it to tropical) seems it would make much more sense for me. Could you try to check out your moon nakshatra in both and see which works better ?
I have checked for a few peoples charts to see if nakshatras would make sense in tropical for them. So far it seems so but the data is so small.
Do you have a ressource for learning the meaning of planetary positions by nakshatra ? I have found KRS has a playlist for a few planets only. Moon is easiest to find everywhere. But other planets not so much
BTW what software or website do you personally use for drawing charts indian style ?
I did get my chart read by both HP Cobra and Lydia. Not by any vedic asrologer tho. Probably won't, I don't feel paying for that.

User avatar
Sinistra
Posts: 392

Re: Nakshatras - Lunar Mansions

Postby Sinistra » Fri May 25, 2018 4:13 pm

I'd like to have a private conversation with you if you want.
Concerning Sam Geppi he seems to have a new agey xtian vibe to him. I don't like him.
Dr Arjun Pal seems legit. I watched several videos where he was guest to other people and he had very interesting things to say.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest