Muscle Protein Synthesis

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Eric13
Posts: 467

Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Eric13 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:58 pm

Muscle Protein Synthesis

There was a recent thread where this was discussed. I was involved and this topic is very complicated but also very interesting. I test positive for being a fitness nerd I would say. I’ll gladly pee in any cup, but I wanted to explain in a more detailed manner for those looking to get in shape and build muscle or any goals related to this. Understanding this process will help you avoid wasting time and make as much gains as possible.

There are two processes related to muscle growth or deterioration that are happening concurrently all the time around the clock. One is muscle building and growth called Muscle Protein Synthesis (mps) and the other, the breakdown of muscle tissue, Muscle Protein Breakdown (mpb). Both are essential for normal healthy physical function.

In a normal healthy person who is relatively maintaining weight, the rate of mps and mpb is balanced and the person neither gains nor loses muscle. This process is independent of calorie intake. The rate of mpb is almost always the same and very little can be done to effect this. It’s a necessary function as it steadily breaks down muscle so that fresh new muscle is always available. This is when mps comes in to provide the new muscle. As mentioned, this happens daily. A constant recycling of the muscle.

The rate of mpb only slows down ever so slightly after a meal where insulin is released. It only slows a little. For mps, however the rate can be manipulated more easily and dramatically.

The main thing that triggers mps is exercise or resistance training specifically. Protein intake will increase it as well. So what happens is through these activities you’re increasing your daily mps and because we know mpb doesn’t change much, now you’ve done a miraculous thing. You’re rate of mps out weighs your rate of mpb and now you are in positive balance. Now your body is building more muscle then it’s breaking down. This is the key to muscle growth through strength training. It’s not what the main theory that goes around where it’s said weight training tears the muscle and then it grows back stronger. It will tear the muscle, this is true, if done close to or to failure but this isn’t the goal. The goal is to stimulate mps and with proper protein intake to provide the building blocks and you put yourself in positive balance and build muscle.

If you were to decrease mps and the rate of mpb surpassed mps then you’d be in negative balance and would lose muscle mass. Certain things can inhibit mps, like prolonged starvation or certain hormones like cortisol. Then you’d lose muscle mass. Which is why you want to avoid stress of any kind while attempting to build your body up.

The average person is in neutral balance. And neither gains nor loses. To illustrate more clearly how this works, let me give an example.

Say a person wakes up and has a protein rich breakfast. The protein will spike mps while the insulin (insulin is anabolic, meaning promotes growth) which is released in any meal regardless of macro nutrients, meaning you could have carbs, fat or protein and insulin is released, will suppress mpb. Sufficient insulin levels that need to be released to bring the maximum suppression of mpb is very small. A single cookie would do the trick. So a protein rich meal will put a person in positive balance for a few hours. Mps is increased and insulin decreases mpb so positive balance is achieved. As hormone levels balance out after the meal mps drops and mpb raises back up and now the person is in negative balance. This process repeats through the day with each meal and will balance out to neutral balance to the average person maintaining their weight.

So if all the same factors are in place, but however the person is strength training and increasing protein intake, then those added activities create an overall positive balance in the day and you are building muscle. This process, as said, is independent of calorie intake and a calorie surplus isn’t needed to build muscle. Adequate protein intake is the factor along with training. The only time calories play a factor is if one is at a deficit for too long. Then mps will drop as the body thinks it’s starving. What is too long? Too long can be a large deficit of more than three days on average. Then mps rates will lower. So trying to build muscle and lose fat, it’s wise to keep the deficit small and cycle your deficit days. Three in a deficit, then aim for maintenance level and then back to the deficit. This should prevent a drop in mps for most individuals. This is to be cautious. However, strength training alone should be enough for preventing a slower rate of mps, provided the calorie deficit isn’t too dramatic and you have a high protein intake. Keep the deficit only a few hundred calories, but I will say, for best muscle building results always aim for as close to maintenance level of calories as possible.

Timing protein intake is a whole other can of worms but for the average gainer it isn’t something to worry about. Just get your daily intake needs met. Shoot for 1g/lb of body weight. More wont hurt, but less has been shown to be statistically inadequate. The timing of protein intake does give benefits but only 10-20% better results and isn’t significant to the average gainer. Only those wanting to maximize gains and are willing to put extra effort need worry about it.

But I can discuss that more if it’s an interest.

The process is very interesting to me. I would enjoy talking about any details to any one interested. Specifically I can explain the science behind training in a general sense if there’s interest. There’s so many wild variables to training. You have to think of goals, the individual persons genetics, etc. but there are observable truths that hold across the board that can be applied to any training situation to maximize success. And it’s very interesting.

AldebaranDeTauro
Posts: 62

Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby AldebaranDeTauro » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:33 am

Great Post Eric13! Super informative and insightful, much appreciated! You seem very knowledgeable in the field of health and fitness so I was wondering if you could give me any good exercises or a specific regiment to follow as far as strength training goes. I'm in my mid 20s,5'11" And roughly 210 lbs. I've done a little bit of strength training In the past (about 2 months) but i feel like I wasn't making enough progress. any and ALL advice would be greatly appreciated brother.

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Hail Buer!!!!

Eric13
Posts: 467

Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Eric13 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:25 am

:?:
AldebaranDeTauro wrote:...

Sorry this is long. Okay, so there are many programs out there where you can follow to build strength.

Here’s what I can explain. When building muscle or strength or in an attempt to make gainz, what it comes down to, especially for a newbie is progressive overload. What this means is, in some sense, you want to be progressing in the exercises on a frequent basis. Whether that be weight, reps, sets, speed, etc. Something needs to be improving on a regular basis. This is how adaptation begins. The body is stubborn and doesn’t want to change but needs to be forced in a safe way.

The simple principles I can discuss that will apply regardless of the program you use is this, you want to hit all muscle groups at least twice a week. After a workout mps, increases for around 48 to even 72 hours. After that it’s done and you need to boost it again with another workout. Hence twice a week. More than that and you’re compromising your bodies ability to recover. Less and your leaving gainz on the table.

Start with compound movements. These are where you can lift heavy cause many muscle groups are involved. Want strength. Include these. Examples of compound movements, are squats, deadlift, bench press, etc. One thing to note is these movements will use many muscle groups but some of those muscles will be only assistant muscles and won’t be primarily worked. These need isolated attention. Like biceps, triceps and shoulders. You need to isolate those for max benefit. Curls, shoulder presses, etc.

As well HP Mageson gave advice for using kettlebells. Though I’m not entirely sure what movements he intended with that advice. Swings, are a multi muscle movement, as well as farmers carries. But I can’t see why those would triumph traditional barbell and dumbbell movements, but rather seem to be great accessory movements to add to a traditional program, but idk that’s a question for him. He mentioned weighted body movements too. This makes sense. Like weighted pull ups or dips. That’ll build strength. But these only need to be utilized if you’re body weight rep counts are going past 10ish I would say. Otherwise the body weight alone is enough for building strength.

Don’t neglect muscle groups. This is how injuries happen. It’s best to find a split where you can work different muscles each day. Like push/pull/legs or upper body / lower body. I’m not a fan or arms day or shoulder day. Back day, etc. the reason is on arms day for example there’s no way you can use compound movements without using muscle groups you didn’t intend. If you do use compound movements over time you’ll be overtraining and will end up in trouble. Certain muscle groups by basic biomechanics work together well. Pull movements work your biceps and back. Push works your triceps and chest. This makes for a great training split. A seven day schedule would look like this: Day1 push, Day2 pull, Day 3 legs, Day4, push, Day5 pull Day 6 legs, Day 7 rest. Repeat.

There’s so much more I can get into but I’ll just add this. Keep your sets per muscle group per week around 10-15 starting off. The science shows beyond this gains stop and injuries rise. 20 is fine for more intermediate and advanced. Newbies don’t exceed that. So maybe five sets of bench press twice a week. And you’ve got 10 sets of chest covered. 2-3 additional sets of maybe cable flys or another similar movement as a finisher, fine now you’re at 14-16 sets. Still fine. Reps, well 6-12 range over all is best. Less and you’re really risking joint injuries and more and you’re risking overuse injuries. But these two ranges need to be with a weight that’s challenging to get those reps. Like I said progressive overload. Maybe with one movement you’re getting 6 reps. Progress over weeks until you can get to 10-12 then increase the weight and go back to 6ish reps but with heavier weight. That’s generally a good format. Now you’re getting stronger.

As far as what movements to do? There are thousands. That’s why there’s so many programs. Just make sure, as said, you’re finding a collection of movements that over a week hit each muscle group 10-15x week roughly. These can be anything, with compound movement being ideal for strength. Then add some isolation work to round it all out.

Also brother Stormblood gave advice, I think is good where he said he preferred things like sandbags or other awkward weighted items. Instead of dumbbells. I think this was the point Mageson was making with using kettlebells. There’s a noted strongman, Paul Anderson, who worked this way. A farmer boy with no access to traditional equipment. He was stronger than all his competitors. He trained with real world awkward heavy things. Tires, logs, sandbags, tractors, you name it. He was strong.

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EnkiUK3
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Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby EnkiUK3 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:47 pm

Great OP Eric

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Stormblood
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Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Stormblood » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:27 pm

Great post, Eric. I want to add one thing and ask a couple of questions.

For those who seek to progress in bodyweight exercises without adding external weight, they should understand how leverage works. For this purpose, I suggest to read "Overcoming Gravity" by Steven Low. It goes in detail to explain how that works and it also has info on how to build your own routines. Now to the questions.

@Eric I've seen you advice 1g of protein for lb of body weight. Is your suggestion related to total body mass or lean body mass? Also, what's your opinion of using 0.8-1.6g of protein for kg of total body mass?
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Eric13
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Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Eric13 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:42 am

Stormblood wrote:@Eric I've seen you advice 1g of protein for lb of body weight. Is your suggestion related to total body mass or lean body mass? Also, what's your opinion of using 0.8-1.6g of protein for kg of total body mass?

MPS rates can only increase to a certain extent. 1.6-2.1g/kg gets you to near maximum mps rates in most individuals. This is roughly 1g/lb for people using lbs. (it’s a little bit higher but it’s a good guideline). Under this amount, and you’re not maximizing your mps rates. Over doesn’t seem to be a problem and in fact there seems to be a linear progression from protein intake from .01g-2.1 where it’s a steady increase of mps. After that and the rates DO still increase but the steady linear progression drops and we see a very slight increase in mps. You’ll make gainz at 0.8g, but you’re also leaving gainz on the table.

Also we’re talking about total body weight here. Body composition doesn’t play much of a role. A person with more body fat will require more protein because less will be utilized properly. A leaner person has more muscle and needs more. So two people with the same body weight, one leaner and one with higher body fat, will more or less need the same protein. There might be subtle differences, but they’re negligible. When in doubt, shoot for the higher end, closer to 2.1+g/kg or 1g/lb of body weight.

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Stormblood
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Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Stormblood » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:57 am

Don't the kidneys get too strain from eating that much protein?
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Ol argedco luciftias
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Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Ol argedco luciftias » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:25 am

Eric13 wrote:
Stormblood wrote:@Eric I've seen you advice 1g of protein for lb of body weight. Is your suggestion related to total body mass or lean body mass? Also, what's your opinion of using 0.8-1.6g of protein for kg of total body mass?

MPS rates can only increase to a certain extent. 1.6-2.1g/kg gets you to near maximum mps rates in most individuals. This is roughly 1g/lb for people using lbs. (it’s a little bit higher but it’s a good guideline). Under this amount, and you’re not maximizing your mps rates. Over doesn’t seem to be a problem and in fact there seems to be a linear progression from protein intake from .01g-2.1 where it’s a steady increase of mps. After that and the rates DO still increase but the steady linear progression drops and we see a very slight increase in mps. You’ll make gainz at 0.8g, but you’re also leaving gainz on the table.

Also we’re talking about total body weight here. Body composition doesn’t play much of a role. A person with more body fat will require more protein because less will be utilized properly. A leaner person has more muscle and needs more. So two people with the same body weight, one leaner and one with higher body fat, will more or less need the same protein. There might be subtle differences, but they’re negligible. When in doubt, shoot for the higher end, closer to 2.1+g/kg or 1g/lb of body weight.

Very interesting! I never saw someone explain it like that.

Eric13
Posts: 467

Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Eric13 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:13 pm

Stormblood wrote:Don't the kidneys get too strain from eating that much protein?

Great question. I hear concern for this a lot.

So this myth came about by the simple and true idea that patients with kidney disease or kidney problems were found to have increased kidney deterioration from high protein diets.

I reviewed some of the literature from the Journal of Applied Physiology and World health Organization. What was found was in people with normal kidney function, high protein diets had no negative effect on renal function and in fact it was shown that healthy individuals with high protein intake had an increase of glomerular filtration rate (gfr), a sign of improved kidney function. (Sorry to get too technical) This is probably due to the fact protein isn’t used for just muscles. It rebuilds almost all of the body. Including kidneys. In fact if a 150lb person eats 150g of protein. Less than 5g of that will build muscle. The rest goes to the rest of the body or is burned as energy. So more protein means the kidneys are in top form.

So it’s revealed that people with healthy kidney function won’t have negative effects from a high protein diet, but in fact could see benefits. As well high protein diets can improve body composition, weight management and appetite control. So no real worry.

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Stormblood
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Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Stormblood » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:28 pm

I only asked because my uncle, who is a medical doctor (but specialised in anesthesia), concurred with me that exessive protein can put a strain on the kidneys but I never asked him what was his definition of excessive. The amount of daily protein intake was something I agreed about with Johnson Akemi, when she still used to write on the forums.

I wonder what researches on everything would show if the test subjects were all SS, as we have improved organ funciton and improved overall physiological function compared to NPCs, just like Falun Dafa practicioners. I believe we can achieve better strength gains faster than NPCs, especially if we were already born with a greater physical potential. The greatly improved energy flow should also allow us to perform better in everything physical, mental or otherwise.
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Eric13
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Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Eric13 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:13 pm

I also want to add the role of timing protein intake.

ANOTHER LONG POST: (I could write a book!)

So as I mentioned this increase of Gainz due to timing is minimal, but does have benefits that those seeking maximum progress may benefit from. If you want maximum progress, read on.

So we’ve learned that you want to shoot for 1g/lb or about 2g/kg of body weight of protein. Less wont give you maximum mps benefits and you’re leaving gainz on the table. So that’s counterproductive to maximizing success.

No matter how much protein you intake per meal contrary to popular belief, your body absorbs it all. HOWEVER, does all of it benefit mps? The answer is probably no, depending on how much is taken in during the meal. So let’s get detailed.

Okay, so there are variables at play here. Let us discuss them. First, how many muscle groups are hit during your workout? Are you doing full body or some kind of partial split?
If you’re doing the former more protein will be utilized for maximizing mps, if you’re doing the later, then less is used. Makes sense.

So let’s get into the numbers. What we know is the difference in your body weight is hardly a factor in how much protein your body will use for maximum mps rates. From a 150lb person to a 250lb person the increase of needed protein is something like just a few grams. Nothing. So let’s keep the numbers round for explaining.

Per meal, for a partial body workout, the increase of mps rates was shown to be on a steady incline from 1g-25. After this point the increase was very minimal pretty much topping out at 40g. So from 25-40. Very little increase. For full body workouts 40 was the minimal and upwards of that the increase was slight.

So for minimum benefit hit 25 g per meal. For max go for 40 even though the increase is slight, there IS an increase.

Now let’s talk timing. Eat a protein rich breakfast aiming, as said, for 25-40g. A preworkout meal is fine, but not necessary unless you’re going to have trouble having a post workout meal. Any meal will increase mps for about 4 hours. So if you can’t get a post workout meal, then go for one before. After workout mps increases, so having a protein rich meal around the workout, either before or after and, you’re optimizing gainz. It should be noted however that this isn’t necessary. We’re taking about maximizing gainz. Mps increases for up to 72 hours after workout. So you have that long to get in your protein if you’re a minimalist.

Now you may ask, if I go over 40g per meal, is the rest a waste if it’s not used to increase mps rates? The answer is absolutely not. It’s not a waste. Protein isn’t just used for muscle building. It’s needed for rebuilding just about everything in your body. So hit your daily protein needs even if you go over 40g per meal.

Now let’s talk before sleep. A lot of people use some kind of BCAA supplement before bed. This isn’t optimal. This isn’t enough. The quantity of each amino acid is insufficient for max benefit. My opinion is, go for a dairy based pre sleep meal. The reason is a full dairy product has both whey protein and Casein. Whey is fast acting and gets into the bloodstream quickly for use. Casein is however slow acting and will keep mps rates up throughout sleep. Both are complete proteins.

Now another variable is at play during sleep. We said relative max mps rates were seen at 25g per meal right? Yes, but this isn’t the case during sleep. Metabolism is different during sleep and we’re going longer without a meal. 40 g of a full milk product will give you max mps rates through the night. There’s fast and slow acting protein and sufficient quantity to last the night.

So to summarize, for optimal timing of protein for max benefit, here’s the plan, high protein breakfast 40g+, actually 40g+ for each meal, then make sure a meal is timed within a four hour window around your workout. Aim for 4 meals a day with the fourth being the dairy meal before bed. Protein snacks or supplements in between are fine to make sure you’re hitting your protein needs and then you’re on the path of winz my friends.

Happy gainz!

P.S. One more thing, a question I hear often is, what about off days? Do I need as much protein on off days? The answer is yes. Why do you have off days? For recovery. What aids in recovery? Protein, so yes get your needed protein daily if you’re working out regularly. Off days or not. Also this plan described above is for maximum success and not required for your average gainer.

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Stormblood
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Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Stormblood » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:16 pm

I'm going to have to counter a point. I've seen cases of coworkers taking protein supplements without training at all and drinking very little water. They ended up in the hospital and were found to have kidney stones. If someone takes supplements (which is the only way to get the amount of proteins suggesting here without incurring in cardiovascular diseases that are linked to excessive eating of meat) they must train regularly. Don't slack on training for too many days in a row and drink plenty of water. One can train even if they are travelling or if they don't own a gym subscription. Bodyweight exercises, elastic bands and the likes help with that.
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Eric13
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Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Eric13 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:08 am

True, the purpose of the high protein is to supply the needed building blocks required for the heightened mps from the individuals workout session.

For a steady trainee, rest days shouldn’t exceed a day or two in a week, unless one is feeling particularly sore and feels they need extra. If rest days exceed this, the protein numbers should go down. Good point! Also if rest days are needed beyond this, one should reconsider the design of their training split or pay extra close attention to their workout volume, diet or sleep. Something isn’t right.

For reaching protein goals, a high quality whey protein poses little to no risk for someone and taken with milk, is excellent for gainz. Unless you’re lactose intolerant of course. Depending on the style of whey you get (concentrate, isolate, etc) you could be dealing with lactose.

Also, slightly off topic, if ladies are interested in the process of mps and how it relates to them vs men. I’d be happy to thoroughly discuss that. Most women fear working out because they don’t want to bulk up but rather seek a toned look. For most this shouldn’t be a worry, FYI. I can explain why.

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Ramier108666
Posts: 79

Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Ramier108666 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:38 pm

Eric13 wrote::?:
AldebaranDeTauro wrote:...

Sorry this is long. Okay, so there are many programs out there where you can follow to build strength.

Here’s what I can explain. When building muscle or strength or in an attempt to make gainz, what it comes down to, especially for a newbie is progressive overload. What this means is, in some sense, you want to be progressing in the exercises on a frequent basis. Whether that be weight, reps, sets, speed, etc. Something needs to be improving on a regular basis. This is how adaptation begins. The body is stubborn and doesn’t want to change but needs to be forced in a safe way.

The simple principles I can discuss that will apply regardless of the program you use is this, you want to hit all muscle groups at least twice a week. After a workout mps, increases for around 48 to even 72 hours. After that it’s done and you need to boost it again with another workout. Hence twice a week. More than that and you’re compromising your bodies ability to recover. Less and your leaving gainz on the table.

Start with compound movements. These are where you can lift heavy cause many muscle groups are involved. Want strength. Include these. Examples of compound movements, are squats, deadlift, bench press, etc. One thing to note is these movements will use many muscle groups but some of those muscles will be only assistant muscles and won’t be primarily worked. These need isolated attention. Like biceps, triceps and shoulders. You need to isolate those for max benefit. Curls, shoulder presses, etc.

As well HP Mageson gave advice for using kettlebells. Though I’m not entirely sure what movements he intended with that advice. Swings, are a multi muscle movement, as well as farmers carries. But I can’t see why those would triumph traditional barbell and dumbbell movements, but rather seem to be great accessory movements to add to a traditional program, but idk that’s a question for him. He mentioned weighted body movements too. This makes sense. Like weighted pull ups or dips. That’ll build strength. But these only need to be utilized if you’re body weight rep counts are going past 10ish I would say. Otherwise the body weight alone is enough for building strength.

Don’t neglect muscle groups. This is how injuries happen. It’s best to find a split where you can work different muscles each day. Like push/pull/legs or upper body / lower body. I’m not a fan or arms day or shoulder day. Back day, etc. the reason is on arms day for example there’s no way you can use compound movements without using muscle groups you didn’t intend. If you do use compound movements over time you’ll be overtraining and will end up in trouble. Certain muscle groups by basic biomechanics work together well. Pull movements work your biceps and back. Push works your triceps and chest. This makes for a great training split. A seven day schedule would look like this: Day1 push, Day2 pull, Day 3 legs, Day4, push, Day5 pull Day 6 legs, Day 7 rest. Repeat.

There’s so much more I can get into but I’ll just add this. Keep your sets per muscle group per week around 10-15 starting off. The science shows beyond this gains stop and injuries rise. 20 is fine for more intermediate and advanced. Newbies don’t exceed that. So maybe five sets of bench press twice a week. And you’ve got 10 sets of chest covered. 2-3 additional sets of maybe cable flys or another similar movement as a finisher, fine now you’re at 14-16 sets. Still fine. Reps, well 6-12 range over all is best. Less and you’re really risking joint injuries and more and you’re risking overuse injuries. But these two ranges need to be with a weight that’s challenging to get those reps. Like I said progressive overload. Maybe with one movement you’re getting 6 reps. Progress over weeks until you can get to 10-12 then increase the weight and go back to 6ish reps but with heavier weight. That’s generally a good format. Now you’re getting stronger.

As far as what movements to do? There are thousands. That’s why there’s so many programs. Just make sure, as said, you’re finding a collection of movements that over a week hit each muscle group 10-15x week roughly. These can be anything, with compound movement being ideal for strength. Then add some isolation work to round it all out.

Also brother Stormblood gave advice, I think is good where he said he preferred things like sandbags or other awkward weighted items. Instead of dumbbells. I think this was the point Mageson was making with using kettlebells. There’s a noted strongman, Paul Anderson, who worked this way. A farmer boy with no access to traditional equipment. He was stronger than all his competitors. He trained with real world awkward heavy things. Tires, logs, sandbags, tractors, you name it. He was strong.



Brother Eric, I've been into fitness for awhile. You use some various isolation exercises. from a standpoint of strength would not compound movements be more easier? I understand people use weights for to main reasons as I've seen thus so far.

1: This falls primarily at looking good, yet the aesthetic can only be limited to how much you lift, yet in terms of physical challenges that require more of a bodyweight initiatve, it can fall short.

2: When needing to lift heavy burdens its prized most as being the initiator of the blocks for when such times happen.


I'm a Calisthenics user and have some years now. While it may seem bias( which it most probrably is), I understand that when one trains through calisthenics, there is a bridge, a gap if you please. The idea of getting 'big'. Naturally one gets in tip top shape for that aforementioned reason. The basics are easily accessible as well as harder variations and even advanced levels, which depend on time and determination.


Muscle synthesis in terms from hypertrophy in relation to weights are limited after muscle overload. You begin the exercise with the amount of reps, however that doesn't mean at first your creating hypertrophy. I'm pretty sure you are aware that lactic acid builds up first brother. It will take a bit longer. I'm not saying it won't be the same in regards to calisthenics. I am saying that the hypertrophy done by bodyweight movements i.e compound movements can be more of beneficial use for anyone, as well as time effective as it can be done anywhere. Of course each to his own. I meant no disrespect on your topic. Just putting my own two cents in. If you want to talk about this more let me now. I'm a geek of fitness too. :geek:
"To one who knows, there is balance. In this balance one must see light and dark as two opposite sides of coin in nature. That knowledge holds true when one uses both sides to an end, no matter what it be. With power comes great responsibility, at all times in every way." -Azazel

Eric13
Posts: 467

Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Eric13 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:10 am

Ramier108666 wrote:Muscle synthesis in terms from hypertrophy in relation to weights are limited after muscle overload. You begin the exercise with the amount of reps, however that doesn't mean at first your creating hypertrophy. I'm pretty sure you are aware that lactic acid builds up first brother. It will take a bit longer. I'm not saying it won't be the same in regards to calisthenics. I am saying that the hypertrophy done by bodyweight movements i.e compound movements can be more of beneficial use for anyone, as well as time effective as it can be done anywhere. Of course each to his own. I meant no disrespect on your topic. Just putting my own two cents in. If you want to talk about this more let me now. I'm a geek of fitness too. :geek:

Muscle protein synthesis occurs with or without training. It occurs continually throughout the day. The rate at which mps occurs is what can be manipulated by training. As said in the posts I made, training provides an environment for positive protein balance. Meaning creating more muscle than breaking down and hypertrophy occurs. To receive maximum benefit you need to be applying resistance to the muscles to the points up to muscular failure. Rep ranges don’t necessarily matter here, so body weight can work to an extent. However, you won’t make strength gains after a point with calisthenics and weights are needed.

I did suggest isolation movements. The reason is compound movements, even though they work multiple muscle groups, some groups get less stimulation. Like calves, biceps, triceps, etc. and isolating them will lead to complete development and will assist the gainz from compound movements. Also it’ll help prevent injury from uneven muscle development.

The fastest way to make gainz is with weights, but as for what choice a person should make calisthenics or weights? That depends on their fitness goals and what they want training to provide for them. Looks? Better go with weights. Strength? Again weights. Martial arts, certain sports like rock climbing, etc., and general health and well being? Calisthenics are great.

Probably a little bit of Column A and little bit of Column B is best for most people. I personally do both.

If a person has no access to weights. They can make gainz with just their body, but they need to apply the principals I outlined in my writings.

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Ramier108666
Posts: 79

Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Ramier108666 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:21 pm

Eric13 wrote:
Ramier108666 wrote:Muscle synthesis in terms from hypertrophy in relation to weights are limited after muscle overload. You begin the exercise with the amount of reps, however that doesn't mean at first your creating hypertrophy. I'm pretty sure you are aware that lactic acid builds up first brother. It will take a bit longer. I'm not saying it won't be the same in regards to calisthenics. I am saying that the hypertrophy done by bodyweight movements i.e compound movements can be more of beneficial use for anyone, as well as time effective as it can be done anywhere. Of course each to his own. I meant no disrespect on your topic. Just putting my own two cents in. If you want to talk about this more let me now. I'm a geek of fitness too. :geek:

Muscle protein synthesis occurs with or without training. It occurs continually throughout the day. The rate at which mps occurs is what can be manipulated by training. As said in the posts I made, training provides an environment for positive protein balance. Meaning creating more muscle than breaking down and hypertrophy occurs. To receive maximum benefit you need to be applying resistance to the muscles to the points up to muscular failure. Rep ranges don’t necessarily matter here, so body weight can work to an extent. However, you won’t make strength gains after a point with calisthenics and weights are needed.

I did suggest isolation movements. The reason is compound movements, even though they work multiple muscle groups, some groups get less stimulation. Like calves, biceps, triceps, etc. and isolating them will lead to complete development and will assist the gainz from compound movements. Also it’ll help prevent injury from uneven muscle development.

The fastest way to make gainz is with weights, but as for what choice a person should make calisthenics or weights? That depends on their fitness goals and what they want training to provide for them. Looks? Better go with weights. Strength? Again weights. Martial arts, certain sports like rock climbing, etc., and general health and well being? Calisthenics are great.

Probably a little bit of Column A and little bit of Column B is best for most people. I personally do both.

If a person has no access to weights. They can make gainz with just their body, but they need to apply the principals I outlined in my writings.



Ok Eric, you seem to have the fundamentals down in small increments. Not to bash you but as I said, hypertrophy occurs faster in bodyweight training simply because compound movements of multiple muscles( push ups work deltiods, triceps, trapizius, serratus anterior, and pectorals, abdominals, hamstrings, and brachioradialis.) The more muscles worked yes requires more time as in isolation simply focus is on the muscle targted,. But still there are still flaws in regards to weight training after you hit the plateau. In order to make more gains one must stack on more weight. Bigger muscles onto a body that nature must accommodate. I'm not saying it's wrong or anything, but just don't be those bloody idiots who take it to the extreme level and can't do anything because one move might mean popping a blood vessel :lol: (I'm sure you've heard of some over eccentric types.)

All the basics are necessary, but weights come to a halt, whereas calisthenics are progressions that build upon just one exercise. Pushup - Pike pushup- handstand pushup.

In case you want to know why I said halt in regards to weights look at the previous paragraph. Also when he has time, I am lucky to meet Lord Thoth when he comes around. I ask questions regarding weight training and calisthenics. He said one thing about it.
"Those who train with weights will gain truely, but after sometime like anything else the amount of pressure applied by same exercises regardless of compound movements becomes too easy and more weight will be applied, and more, and more etc. Which means muscles strained will gain as the user wants but will only be limited to the weights he lifts. Calisthenics are hard but I recommend anyone to try it first then jump into weights. Master your body. Then you'll have concrete foundation for weights should you want."

If you think it's bullshit, hey that's your thing bro. I analyzed what he said from my years of training. I've seen weightlifters. Thoth is correct. (Plus how can you say he's wrong when you look at his physique?)
"To one who knows, there is balance. In this balance one must see light and dark as two opposite sides of coin in nature. That knowledge holds true when one uses both sides to an end, no matter what it be. With power comes great responsibility, at all times in every way." -Azazel

Eric13
Posts: 467

Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Eric13 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:33 pm

Ramier108666 wrote:...

I agree calisthenics are great. But the theory you state of them inducing hypertrophy quicker isn’t necessarily true. You say it’s cause of compound movements, but there’s compound weight movements obviously. Push up, bench press. Same thing. Bench press will build muscle faster than push ups. Weight training done right will always build muscle faster and of course you’ll have to add weights. That’s why you’ll make faster gainz and get stronger. Calisthenics have their place and I DO recommend them as I said, but it’s just not true of them creating faster muscle gainz. And the wall you speak of happens to any advanced trainee. With weights or not. And different things need to be done to challenge the body and create gainz. Just the way it is.

Ol argedco luciftias
Posts: 2770
Location: Duat, Orion

Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Ol argedco luciftias » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:52 pm

The thing about weights, is it only works in one small little segmented motion. So you make that one muscle big, but all of the smaller muscles, tendons, and ligaments in between aren't really getting used. So people end up being really strong at doing those specific little segmented motions, but they don't end up strong enough to do real work. They aren't making their whole body strong, just a few "glamour muscles" just for the look. I've seen strong looking people who go to the gym all the time try to do things like heavy yard work, moving and carrying heavy things around, and they aren't able to do it. But then the person who does this kind of yard work often, never goes to the gym, and doesn't even look strong, it is really easy for this person. Because by doing actual natural work, they make their whole body strong. There are hundreds of muscles in your body, plus all the ligaments and tendons that also need to be strengthened. You can't just work on 10 muscles in these fake little unnatural motions and act like that's all you need. Another thing with these weight lifting body builder guys, is they end up putting such a tension and strain on their joints and bones, that they lose their mobility and flexibility. They end up looking like a refrigerator, and they can only move around about as well as a refrigerator can. But the person who does actual natural physical work, they have their flexibility and motion maintained perfectly. All the little in-between muscles, ligaments, and tendons are strong in this person, and this balances against the other muscles, so they don't have this extreme unbalanced tension built up like the body builders get.

People are natural, we exist and live as part of nature, and our bodies are designed to work within nature. If you want to have a strong body, use it in the way it was designed to be used. By doing actual physical work. You have something like 300 different muscles [I'm not sure the exact number, might be more than this] you can't just put all your focus on 10 or 20 of them and act like it's okay.

Eric13
Posts: 467

Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Eric13 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:18 pm

Ol argedco luciftias wrote:The thing about weights, is it only works in one small little segmented motion. So you make that one muscle big, but all of the smaller muscles, tendons, and ligaments in between aren't really getting used. So people end up being really strong at doing those specific little segmented motions, but they don't end up strong enough to do real work. They aren't making their whole body strong, just a few "glamour muscles" just for the look.

Really depends on how a person trains. Practical strength can be achieved with weights.

Centralforce666
Posts: 291

Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Centralforce666 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:58 pm

The problem with high protein diets is that protein metabolism in the body always produces urea.

Urea is ammonia made safe by the body as ammonia is produced by protein molecule metabolism and is highly toxic.

The kidneys primary filtrate is urea, and urea gives urine (urine : urea) it's distinctive smell and colour.

Overloading a filter with too much filtrate will produce strain eventually.

Normally, the first symptom of renal strain (not to be confused with renal failure) is gout. Gout causes extreme pain, usually on the ball of the foot, from a build up of urea crystals locally.

Other symptoms of renal strain include:

- cold limbs (from the wrist all the way to the elbow, or ankle to knee but not when it is just the hands or feet),

- frequent or uncontrolled urination,

- recurring uti's,

- extreme fatigue and lassitude, depression,

- soreness of the lower back that is chronic and persistent,

- vertigo,

- night sweating and hot flushes.

When the kidneys are involved there would be at least three of the above symptoms occurring together.

Most people aged 15 - 35 are unlikely to develop a syndrome of kidney strain from a high protein diet however this is because their kidney energies are high when they are in this age range.

It does still affect the kidneys though not in a manner which is likely to be noticeable, assuming the person is otherwise healthy.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

If you want a peaceful life, prepare for war

Eric13
Posts: 467

Re: Muscle Protein Synthesis

Postby Eric13 » Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:52 am

Centralforce666 wrote:Overloading a filter with too much filtrate will produce strain eventually.

This is assuming the same filter is being used for a lifetime, but it’s not. This is why high protein diets aren’t unsafe like some believe. The body is constantly recycling itself, especially the high use organs like kidneys, liver and digestive organs. Some take years to recycle, others like stomach take days, but high protein diets actually show improvements in the filtration rates, because they’re more maintained with a high protein diet. Like a car is constantly going through wear and tear, but with proper maintenance it’ll last a long time. Without it, it won’t. Same concept. I’m short on time, but can link studies showing improved organ function with high protein later.

Now when a person already has poor kidneys, high protein can be an issue, but poor kidney function isn’t always permanent. Again with proper eating and care it’ll recover and heal. The fear of high protein, especially people training isn’t needed. Especially for body recomposition, protein is excellent.


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